TownMeetings(*): Hello again everybody, this is Chessty
Grovel: oh
Gorgonian: hello
RAH: hello Chessty
EnPassant: good evening chessty
Grovel: i thought you left for good ;]
ahorse: evening
Gorgonian: you look good in that get-up
turbo: Hello!
TownMeetings(*): I will begin the meeting shortly and there are a few
ground rules
TownMeetings(*): I will listen politely to you and answer your
questions and I expect the same courtesy and respect from all of you
TownMeetings(*): I will not indulge in a heated debate, nor will I
participate in an argument
TownMeetings(*): this is a discussion and will be treated seriously
BlitzChessClub: ?
SaintEmilion: Chessty did you change your clothes just for the town
meeting and us? How nice
TownMeetings(*): I respect each and every one of you and your opinions
so lets not treat this as a joke
ahorse: t 1 spydersweb said that he +ch 2-ed and his tells still say
he's not listening
botchvinik: hi chessty
botchvinik: hi chessty
Kokesh(*): what if it's a REALLY REALLY stupid question?
TownMeetings(*): I will ignore all jokes, comments, etc not pertaining
to the discussion at hand
TownMeetings(*): I will do my best to answer each and every one of you
TownMeetings(*): if I miss your question, please be patient and ask again
Cowboyz: what's this town meeting about?
bsdc: Thank you for having the town meeting.
RAH: please tell me were mine stolen but still you have copies
turbo: news 1097
Grovel: chessty can we have the background leading up to this?
TownMeetings(*): I will NOT be repeating my answers endlessly, if a
question is already asked, I will simply answer to read the log
turbo: read that for top of discussion
TownMeetings(*): this meeting is being logged
turbo: will you be able to send the log to members who cannot participate?
turbo: since I must leave in a minute
ahorse: they get posted online
TownMeetings(*): I will post the log, follow the news item for the location
turbo: ok, thank you
turbo: Why is this topic important?
TownMeetings(*): be very patient for my answers, there are many of you
and one of me, and I will be scrolling up to see what I missed while
typing
turbo: I do not understand the "ramifications" of it
Bahamut: I kinda wished my comment file had been stolen, since I've
always wanted to see it
Bahamut: However I remember the day I was emailed a copy of volcano's
comment file
BoonieRat: chessty, are you taking ?s yet?
TownMeetings(*): No, Boonie, I will open the channel for questions
when I am through
RAH: Chessty will be taking her time during this cause there is only
one of her and many of you
TownMeetings(*): I am going to start with a bit of background information first
SaintEmilion: yeah cool it guys Chessty is busy typing
TownMeetings(*): as stated in news 1097, during the time of July
28,2001 and January 1, 2002 we had a rogue admin
TownMeetings(*): this user went by the handle Seipman, a known abuser
that had a long history of abusing the server
TownMeetings(*): he created a dupe account named Daysleeper
TownMeetings(*): this dupe account was a model user for quite some
time and soon found himself added to the TM team
TownMeetings(*): and then SR team, and then sad to say..the admin team
TownMeetings(*): during his tenure as admin, this user copied as many
comment files for his friends as he could
TownMeetings(*): those he distributed
TownMeetings(*): some he offered for sale
RAH: so we been duped folks
TownMeetings(*): I will address questions regarding comment files shortly
TownMeetings(*): the 'admin' in question was removed as soon as it was
discovered that he had been the source of admin leaks, and several
other troubles on the server
krell: who was that admin?
Bahamut: Seipman, apparently
botchvinik: when he became admin did he have to sign any legal mombo
jumbo to get there?
MojoMan: need to take more control of ch 24
TownMeetings(*): again, the admin was Daysleeper, a dupe of Seipman
RAH: seipman .. krell it was seipman
EnPassant: Daysleeper krell
Kokesh(*): ask questions when Chessty is done
TownMeetings(*): questions later please
strobane: what does this have to do with today?
botchvinik: ok
TownMeetings(*): this happened quite a few years ago now and as you
can all see, no real harm came of him stealing those comment files
TownMeetings(*): he gave them to his friends
TownMeetings(*): we don't know how many he has, or whose files he has
TownMeetings(*): this user came online as a guest a couple of nights
ago trying to blackmail the server into allowing his account back
TownMeetings(*): he obviously is a banished user
RAH: he probably downloaded as he dayslept if that helps....
TownMeetings(*): he threatened to post the comment files that he stole
in a public location
TownMeetings(*): this raised some concerns as to the content and what
personal information might be contained that would be released
MojoMan: ch 24 is a Mess -- players there are totally out of control
-- as is this server
TownMeetings(*): he assumed that would allow him to have his account back again
TownMeetings(*): he guessed wrong
BlitzChessClub: 0uch
TownMeetings(*): the files are several years old and they do not
really contain anything very exciting
strobane: this server is great...keep up the good woek!
RAH: good girl chessty
BlitzChessClub: yah who would care anyways
MojoMan: just my 2 cents -- good luck all
Nitreb: What's contained exactly in these comment files?
TownMeetings(*): I will be opening the floor for questions now
regarding the comment files
bsdc: Does every registered FICS user have a comment file?
BlitzChessClub: wouldn't pay 2 cents to see the files
TownMeetings(*): Nitreb first, one moment please
RAH: give him mine chesstty say they are worht a lot i will handle it
from there ok sweetie
Cowboyz: what's a comment file?
TownMeetings(*): a comment file is nothing more than admins notes on a player
strobane: who cares?
TownMeetings(*): these notes might be the sanctions recorded
Cowboyz: okay
BlitzChessClub: so whats my comment file
TownMeetings(*): they might be suspicions the admins have on a user
TownMeetings(*): they might be good comments
BlitzChessClub: show me the good comments
botchvinik: when he became admin did he have to sign any legal mombo
jumbo to get there?
TownMeetings(*): there are several things in there, some important to
admins, some just silly
Bahamut: Please shush
MojoMan: comments are cool -- but players have bad nights and good nights
BoonieRat: chessty, as the contents of these files are now pub domain,
and as we have been shown that the files are not secure, will the
contents of member files be divulged to each member?
TownMeetings(*): one question at a time please, I am addressing Nitreb
MojoMan: and also players new to the server make mistakes
BlitzChessClub: really? the files r in the open
Nitreb: So administrative stuff mainly
BlitzChessClub: came in late
TownMeetings(*): correct, Nitreb
Nitreb: thanks
TownMeetings(*): some of the comments might be something like Nitreb
reported that he suspects "user" is a dupe account
TownMeetings(*): we check that out
MojoMan: comment files are like nicks -- last forever -- which is wrong
TownMeetings(*): this would be an anonymous entry, we do not want
users on the server to know that a report was filed
RAH: have you contacted the authorities Chessty or should I contact
them for you Blackmail/extortion should be dealt wiht chessty
BlitzChessClub: LOL then god knows how many comments i got
Grovel: how serious can this be. can seip sue? or can fics sue him?
BlitzChessClub: hey BlitzChessClub is a dupe
TownMeetings(*): if so, the one that reported becomes subject to abuse
himself once found out
BlitzChessClub: hey! Grovel is a dupe!
MidKnightBlue: way to mix it up rah
BlitzChessClub: lol
TownMeetings(*): okay, one sec..I am going to scroll up
BlitzChessClub: put it in me file folder
TownMeetings(*): I have not read any of your tells while answering Nitreb
botchvinik: it no wonder i get abuse...lol
TownMeetings(*): one moment please
MidKnightBlue: ok lets keep it serious for a bit so they can get business done
Grovel: chessty will now answer them in order i suppose
BlitzChessClub: sorry
botchvinik: when he became admin did he have to sign any legal mombo
jumbo to get there?
MidKnightBlue: blitz, i am just being a cheeseball, feel free to call
yourself a dupe
Bahamut: It would probably be best to wait until she has answered the
previous question before posing another one guys. There is no use in
asking questions in rapid succession, except to cause confusion
BlitzChessClub: lol MidKnight
Bahamut: .. or before repeating a question that was already asked
ahorse: are there different levels of comment files so he wouldn't
have been able to see them if he were a sr or tm?
BlitzChessClub: hey can I be the mid-person and be like "Grovel
question is next" or something
TownMeetings(*): slow down if you want answers
Gorgonian: thats correct ahorse
TownMeetings(*): as I said..only one of me and many of you
MidKnightBlue: you have my vote blitz
TownMeetings(*): botchvinik, I have seen your name crop up a few times
TownMeetings(*): your question please?
botchvinik: when he became admin did he have to sign any legal mombo
jumbo to get there?
bsdc: Does every registered FICS user have a comment file?
TownMeetings(*): no, we do not have nondisclosure agreements at this time
TownMeetings(*): it is something we now feel we will need to look into
because of this situation however
botchvinik: can we legally stop this horse maneuvere
TownMeetings(*): we have always operated on the honor system
botchvinik: ah
BoonieRat: M_?
MojoMan: why not cancel old accounts? players that have not conneted
in 10 years? why not allow someone to change handle? I don't care
about dupes -- this server encourages dupes
BoonieRat: <-?
Bahamut: Mojoman come on, that is entirely off topic
MidKnightBlue: do i need to leave if i wanna grab a beer?
TownMeetings(*): MojoMan, one sec please
botchvinik: yes, why not shut down 5+ year old inactives?
TownMeetings(*): ah, lets keep this contained to comment files for
now, i will be happy to address outside issues later
redback: oh the town meeting!
TownMeetings(*): another question about comment files?
BoonieRat: chessty, do you need me to repeat my ?
pedereng: can we wee our comment files?
botchvinik: did the comment files include email addresses?
TownMeetings(*): yes Boonie, go next please
MojoMan: sorry -- so many things gone bad -- hard to know where to start
bsdc: Sorry to repeat myself, but does every registered FICS user have
a comment file, or only some people.
pedereng: *see
ahorse: do they contain names and addresses?
TownMeetings(*): one question at a time please
TownMeetings(*): obviously it will do no good to hit me with them if I
am not ready to address you yet
BoonieRat: ok, as the files are now out in the open, will each user be
allowed access to his file to minimize personal damage?
Gorgonian: mojoman this townmeeting is not for general fics concerns.
it is about the comment file issue only. please leave the other stuff
for later
Gorgonian: it only muddies it up in here
Grovel: bsdc comment only if you bad or been good and an admin wants
to put it in your file
TownMeetings(*): no, we will not be giving out personal comment files
for the same reasons we have not done so in the past
abducted: a train leaves chicago at 2:00 pm travelling east at 60 mph...
nana: hi there
spydersweb: well it seems to me that this rogue user could easily come
back here as another user. There's no way to stop him actually. A
potential solution for all of us is to be able to 1. see our comments
2. Judge whether we are at risk 3. and if so we cshould be allowed to
change our name, keeping our current record and ratings.
nana: what did I miss?
BlitzChessClub: please one question i see like 10 in the course of 5 seconds
TownMeetings(*): they are not just a log of the sanctions on the
account, they are also a log of admin thoughts, opinions, warnings,
abuse reports by anonymous users, etc
MojoMan: the connection is -- everything is perm here -- which is the
source of a lot of problems
BoonieRat: chessty, so we are left hanging in the wind as to potential
embarrassing comments?
TownMeetings(*): most comments are not of the embarrassing sort
BoonieRat: chessty, but some are
MojoMan: everything should reset once a year
MidKnightBlue: question please
nana: I was told I had a huge comment file. LOL
TownMeetings(*): for example your comment file consists of 5
comments, all of which are email changes
BlitzChessClub: What GrandMaster was on FICS first
nana: drat, I have to go. bye all!
BlitzChessClub: or is that like out of line question
MojoMan: not surprised nana
pedereng: how many comments are in my comment file?
Bahamut: He emailed me volcano's comment file for some bizarre reason;
I'm not his friend and I didnt send the file to anyone but volcano.
But I remember it was exceedingly boring, although there was some
funny stuff I guess. It's like, "<date> Nuked for swearing in a shout
<--admin>" 200 times
ilbahr: so the email addresses are included in the comment file
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
TownMeetings(*): another example is that we log comments that a user
has a roommate or family member also logged on here
TownMeetings(*): this prevents admins from blindly assuming the new
account is a dupe account
Cowboyz: next time he comes on as a guest, let me talk to him
Cowboyz: I can reason with idiots
Cowboyz: lolz
BlitzChessClub: can admins see your personal tells
TownMeetings(*): it is personal though in that a user might not want
anyone else to know he has family online
MidKnightBlue: have we found a way to prevent future leaks?
Grovel: 200 times? spam
BoonieRat: chessty, then perhaps fics needs an attorney as it is
taking responsibilty for keeping things private, and it has not done
so.
Bahamut: Boonie who is going to pay an attorney?
fly: So comment files contain a history of email addresses?
TownMeetings(*): we do not take responsibility for keeping things private
BlitzChessClub: yah who would want to sue FICS what would u get ?
BoonieRat: poitning this out as there are some in the chess community
that sue on a whim
MojoMan: like i said -- reset once a year
TownMeetings(*): we do our best to maintain privacy out of respect for our users
TownMeetings(*): but clearly stated in help disclaimer section (h),
you play here at your own risk
BlitzChessClub: so can admins see your personalt ells
Grovel: but fics is under no legal obligation to privacy?
TownMeetings(*): the comment files are for admins uses, not for general public
BlitzChessClub: everyone thats in the fine print
TownMeetings(*): one moment, scrolling up again
MidKnightBlue: the guy that breeched security can continue to do so?
MojoMan: remove all sanctions -- all stored games -- all comments--
inactive accounts --once a year
TownMeetings(*): no questions for a sec please
Bahamut: Simply put I don't think there's a great deal to get worked
up about here. The only damage that can be done to your e-reputation
would only occur within FICS
FlatNoteSharp: LOL
BlitzChessClub: besides only ADMINS can see your personal info and
ADMINS r suppose to be like cops u know good trustworthy people
BlitzChessClub: omg lol
BoonieRat: not true, bahamut, gms on icc have come under intense
pressure in otb world when suspected onf (c) abuse
Bahamut: You see any GMs getting accused of (C) abuse on FICS?
BlitzChessClub: please no icc thanks
TownMeetings(*): MidKnightBlue
MidKnightBlue: yes..
BlitzChessClub: LOL
TownMeetings(*): the person in question is no longer a staff member
and has not been for several years
BoonieRat: baha, that was an example, if a person plays here that has
a job requiring no violations of moral terpitude, then comments by an
admin here of cheating could have adverse effects
TownMeetings(*): he cannot access any new information since he was booted out
MidKnightBlue: basically want to know how to prevent the same guy from
doing it again
MojoMan: I think I said it best
Bhima: was this flum's mystereous source of information?
botchvinik: so if these comment files all contain email addresses then
those addresses could be/been subject to email spam abuse attacks?
Which COULD lead to legal action?
botchvinik: so if these comment files all contain email addresses then
those addresses could be/been subject to email spam abuse attacks?
Which COULD lead to legal action?
BlitzChessClub: FICS is the best admin server there is
TownMeetings(*): we screen admin applicants far more carefully now
DamonM: We know who it is? Do we know what specific comment files were stolen?
spydersweb: I would like your comments on my suggestion ~V A potential
solution for all of us is to be able to 1. see our comments 2. Judge
whether we are at risk 3. and if so we cshould be allowed to change
our name, keeping our current record and ratings.
MidKnightBlue: ok, thanks
TownMeetings(*): we woke up and realized that not all users are as
honest as we would like to think
BlitzChessClub: i.e. the admins r very out going very nice nice
members other then some other place wink wink
Grovel: but after 3 years he comes back to beg to get back on fics?
and by threatening comment files? thats not a nice way to get back on
BlitzChessClub: so you should trust your admins - thanks
bsdc: DamonM, your question was addressed earlier.
TownMeetings(*): all admins hired now have been known by another admin
in real life
MojoMan: remove all sanctions -- all stored games -- all comments
-- inactive accounts -- once a year
BeauB(SR): spyders -- that would also allow you to get around all
censors/noplays/etc, opening the door for easy abuse (with a name
change)
BlitzChessClub: but i have a question
TownMeetings(*): they are checked out in real life, which helps
EnPassant: Does a member have the oppurtunity to quit the FICS and
have said personal comment file(s) to expunged?
TownMeetings(*): but makes admin additions slow
DamonM: I did not see it earlier, I wasn't here. Sorry
Bahamut: EnPassant: No
TownMeetings(*): EnPassant
TownMeetings(*): no, comment files are permanent
TownMeetings(*): we store information in there that has helped us to
track down dupes
that appear years later
BlitzChessClub: the comment about if admins can see your personal tells
TownMeetings(*): BCC
MidKnightBlue: ok, i feel comfortable with our security. thx TM for
answering the question
BlitzChessClub: just asking thanks
TownMeetings(*): no, we do not monitor personal tells (thank God
for that)
BlitzChessClub: ))
BlitzChessClub: acctally :DDDDD
TownMeetings(*): judging by the tone of some mistells, i would blush
myself to death if I had to read the personal tells
BlitzChessClub: ok tnx you honor
DamonM: is there a way to determine if your comment file was one that
was stolen?
BlitzChessClub: lol Chessty
TownMeetings(*): personal tells and messages are not logged, nor read
ahorse: so an admin needs to be checked out through a background check
or actually physically meeting an admin
BlitzChessClub: I mean TownMeeting
Mori: hmmm i wonder is Seip is listening in this channel right now
TownMeetings(*): if you are a resident of ch 24 it probably was
TownMeetings(*): if you were not, it probably wasn't
TownMeetings(*): he stole the files of people he knew to give it to them
Bhima: do complaints from other users get logged, Chessty?
ilbahr: TownMeetings i would strongly suggest that our email addresses
should not be included in comment files
TownMeetings(*): yes, Bhima
DamonM: thank you
MojoMan: Bahamut tells you: Please wait your turn, you are only
clogging things up --clog what? accounts that are inactive for 10
years??? commect files that are old as dirt? whatever -- goodnight
TownMeetings(*): which is one of the reasons comment files are kept private
ilbahr: their should be more scrutiny on them
RAH: not by an honest admin but what about a dishonest one can he
tap into the sytem like a hacker slacker
TownMeetings(*): email addresses are given at registration and are
visible in your finger notes to admins
TownMeetings(*): having them in comment files changes nothing
ahorse: so an admin needs to be checked out through a background check
or actually physically meeting an admin
TownMeetings(*): yes, ahorse
BlitzChessClub: aka having a beer
TownMeetings(*): we are much more careful these days
pedereng: i want to thank all the admins who work hard to make this a
great server and I want to remind people how easy it is to second
guess If you feel strongly about how things are managed here, i
suggest you apply to be an admin
fly: Why is a *history* of past email addresses needed?
ahorse: physically meeting then? (was an either or)
MidKnightBlue: protection is key
BlitzChessClub: yah like years back on AOL they found they had like
ten 12 year olds for Guides LOL
TownMeetings(*): fly
ilbahr: so why they are visible through finger notes why not just put
more security on email addresses
TownMeetings(*): because a dupe will often use other email addresses
and a record of them helps to catch them
BlitzChessClub: cause u can ask for copy of DL to be a admin and just
photo copy your parents
TownMeetings(*): as you most are aware, we have a huge dupe problem
DamonM: As I recall, the commment files are not like your
personal bank account number or anything, mostly stray admin remarks, or
explanations for a sanction like a nuke.
TownMeetings(*): this can be largely attributed to the rogue admin
ilbahr: so to catch a dupe you sacrifice our privacy ?
TownMeetings(*): he gave out the information we use to track dupes,
making those that
create dupes have a much easier time of it
TownMeetings(*): and get away with it for far longer
Bahamut: What's the problem with letting the server know your email
address anyway? This isn't a fascist state, no one in heavy black
boots is coming to kill you
BeauB(SR): how does 60 people who are not going to email you/sign you
up for spamvertisements being able to see your email address count as
"sacrificing our privacy"
BlitzChessClub: who gave the info again
TownMeetings(*): our job is 100 times harder now to track dupes
because they know how to get around our checking
redback: should people have shorter notes?
BlkSabb: where do I go to read all of the secret info? It sounds
mildly interesting now
BlitzChessClub: lol BlkSabb
TownMeetings(*): the comment files will remain private
Grovel: I cant believe hoe mean some humans are like the comment stealer.
BlkSabb: does this guy have a website or a blog or something?
TownMeetings(*): if any of you want to know about a particular item, I
will address it but by no means am I going to read through your entire
comment files
Bahamut: Uh, I don't think this is the place to ask BlkSabb, she's not
going to make the problem worse.. this is like asking George Bush how
to build WMD
TownMeetings(*): I make it a habit to not read the files unless I
absolutely have to
DamonM: I would be more interested in some of the comments on my file
from a few particular admins...
BlitzChessClub: u can read mine you honor it won't hurt i promise
RAH: hey seipman AllenRAhutcheson@hotmail.com try my acount out for size
DamonM: Some can be quite humorous
BlitzChessClub: i found the member! guilty
TownMeetings(*): there have been reports that admins have hounded a
user and followed him around watching for every slight misstep
TownMeetings(*): this is true, that has happened
BlitzChessClub: FICS should like hold court where u can protest a
comment being added in your profile
Bahamut: Yeah, it has...
TownMeetings(*): it is NOT something I condone by any means
TownMeetings(*): and I put a stop to it as soon as it is discovered
ilbahr: I do not know why all this checking we are here just to play
chess if someone want to get around the system that does not mean we
have to keep files on all users
bsdc: Thank you for being honest about that.
TownMeetings(*): I will not tolerate the "big brother" attitude
TownMeetings(*): it has happened in the past, I am sure it will happen
again in the future
Grovel: wow yea its bad to take law in own hands.
TownMeetings(*): admins are volunteers here and they are human
BlitzChessClub: lol Grovel
TownMeetings(*): they get into 'pissy' moods as do all of you
redback: defamatory stuff should be removed
TownMeetings(*): they should not
BlitzChessClub: ROBOadmin is the only paid one
RAH: yes.... please reinstate me in tourneys....
TownMeetings(*): they have a responsibility to be model users here
botchvinik: yes i remember dchesshampster doing that crap
botchvinik: yes i remember dchesshampster doing that crap
EnPassant: and we will be sure to log such admin behavior in our
admin comment files :)
TownMeetings(*): and I expect reports if they do not conduct
themselves accordingly
Bahamut: Eh, disciplinary action ought to be robotic, you define
your principles beforehand. That way the emotions don't matter
TownMeetings(*): for what its worth, I have not had any major
reports of that in nearly a year
BlitzChessClub: do admins comment each other?
TownMeetings(*): absolutely!
redback: is this an admin meeting?
Bahamut: "news 1097"
botchvinik: yes, the fics KGB eats itself
TownMeetings(*): admins face disciplinary actions as do regular users
ilbahr: by the way do not get us wrong townmeeitng i do appreciate
all the effort done in the site and all the help we recieve i just do
not understand why try to catch dupes
TownMeetings(*): I expect the admins to follow the rules that they
expect you to follow
DamonM: it sounds to me like it is getting less and less desirable
to be a volunteeradmin
ilbahr: by monitoring every one
Bahamut: ilbahr: I'd guess the big problem with dupes would be that
it gets around censor/noplay lists
TownMeetings(*): dupes are created to cheat the server
Bahamut: Or for rating abuse
DamonM: are there plans to make them paid staff?
Grovel: if any of you suspect a bad admin or abusing you reprt to chessty.
TownMeetings(*): they are used to hassle users that have their
regular accounts censored
Pulmannen: Hi, I do not know if this is an appropriate question for
this townmeeting but I am curious if my comment file contain many
comments.
TownMeetings(*): there will never be paid staff
botchvinik: so do you have a record of IP addresses on this daysleeper guy?
Boomie: what behavior warrants disciplinary action?
TownMeetings(*): that is against the whole idea of this server
Bahamut: Boomie: "help abuse"
ilbahr: and if they do what is the gain????
DamonM: (never say never)
ilbahr: we play for fun what a rating is but a number
TownMeetings(*): yes botch but that does not help with proxies
TownMeetings(*): and he obviously knows what we use to catch dupes,
making it more difficult
botchvinik: ahh
fly: Is there any chance that old comments will be removed? Don't
abuse accusations and other non-dup related comments become less
relevant with age?
TownMeetings(*): Boomie, do you mean on the server or for admins?
TownMeetings(*): old comments are simply not read
redback: any comments on me?
TownMeetings(*): we can only handle so many blah entries of email
changes, password changes, other mundane changes
Bahamut: I was banned for a day once, I think like ten years ago :D
TownMeetings(*): boring reading and has nothing to do with the player
TownMeetings(*): everybody has a comment file
DamonM: *smile* ... actually, <wicked grin>
TownMeetings(*): it begins with an entry by SparkysDrone that
records the day you registered
redback: how do i access mine?
TownMeetings(*): you do not
Mori: I have a question...how frequently do admins post comments on users?
igrok(*): "a rating is just a number" is NO excuse for tolerating
abuse of the ratings
Grovel: i was muzzeled for an hour for singing a dirty song. i deserved it
TownMeetings(*): comment files are admin files and will remain such
bsdc: redback, only admins access the comment files. This was
explained before.
TownMeetings(*): Mori,
botchvinik: hasn't this guy violated any initial signup
rules/regulations as a regular user so that we(fics) COULD prosecute
him?
TownMeetings(*): there is no particular frequency
DamonM: I am trying to remember if I was muzzled, once. I don't
think I was ever booted (yet)
Mori: if you were to guess...
TownMeetings(*): we record comments as we feel appropriate
Mori: once a week? once a month?
TownMeetings(*): it might be good, it might be bad
TownMeetings(*): we have the majority of our users that have 5
comments or less
DamonM: but I am sure there have been a few times an admin or two
would have liked to.
TownMeetings(*): and we have users that have hundreds of comments
Grovel: will he now post these comments publicly
since hes not getting back on fics?
Bahamut: <-
FlatNoteSharp: ME
BeauB(SR): I bet I have around a hundred
igrok(*): people have a right to take their ratings seriously and
have the server take them seriously -- so if other people cheat and
manipulate the ratings dishonestly, we have an obligation to put a
stop to that behavior
redback: comment--> this guy is a jerk
FlatNoteSharp: Which admin are we speaking of here?
MojoMan: comment files - like everything else should be deleted with time
Bahamut: More concretely I'd say ratings abuse constitutes a moral
wrong but that's a long discussion :)
ilbahr: we play here for free no money is exchanged so if it
satisfy their ego to cheat we should not sacrifice our privacy to
catch them
TownMeetings(*): there are comment files on my
account, Chessty, as well
TownMeetings(*): everybody has them
spydersweb: ok if he posts this stuff, you probably DO have an FBI
case -because it's cybercrime
MojoMan: another reason people create dupe accounts
DamonM: posting inane info?
TownMeetings(*): I honestly doubt he will, the only ones he cared
about were the ones he had for his friends and he already gave them
FlatNoteSharp: Which admin are we speakin of?
TownMeetings(*): the only ones that are of real concern are the admin files
redback: comment --> this player is rude and arrogant
TownMeetings(*): heh YOUR files are most likely not in danger
TownMeetings(*): he copied admin files
DamonM: Chessty, do you feel there is any info in these files that
would be a legit cause for personal concern to anyone?
TownMeetings(*): our personal information is in the most danger of
being posted
fly: With the potential for leaks, why not get rid of old non-dup
related comments which are no longer relevant or useful to the server
but can be damaging to individual users.
TownMeetings(*): for the regular user, absolutely not
Grovel: you compramized are the stolen admin files?
TownMeetings(*): for the admin, a grave cause for concern
Bahamut: There was no personal information in the file on volcano
that he sent me, it was quite boring and I deleted it after having a
good laugh
FlatNoteSharp: WHICH admin are we speaking of?
Grovel: wow grave
DamonM: why a grave cause for concern for admins?
TownMeetings(*): admins will often put their contact info in it so
that when we are offline for an extended period of time, we can be
contacted at home
FlatNoteSharp: Which admin got fired?
TownMeetings(*): admins stand the most to lose with
this issue
redback: all comments should be deleted after 3
months
Grovel: oh gosh
Bahamut: FlatNote: Daysleeper aka Seipman
Grovel: gosh
MojoMan: there is no reason why things cant be
cleaned up every so often
DamonM: not a wise practice.
FlatNoteSharp: Ok, neither of these guys has logged
in for years.
FlatNoteSharp: What's the big deal.
bsdc: So the admins whose contact information is still the same as
in 2001 are in danger.
TownMeetings(*): lol I would love to do that Mojo, you have no idea :)
DamonM: and personal info should be deleted from the comment files
of those admins
TownMeetings(*): reading 516 comments on an abusers
file is pretty grim
Bahamut: Yes Damon, they were banned at the time of the event. THe
reason for this town meeting is that he returned and threatened to
post them to a public forum
TownMeetings(*): most have been here longer than I have
redback: how was it possible to steal these comments?
Bahamut: Ugh
FlatNoteSharp: I'd love to see my comments.
FlatNoteSharp: I'm sure it'd be a swindle.
fly: The process could easily be automated based on the time stamps.
FlatNoteSharp: I've been with FICS since I was 15.
DamonM: Let him post the stupid files. What use would such info be, anyway?
MojoMan: comments? 3 months? maybe -- 1 year? -- yes! -- handles
not used in 5 years??? c'mon
Grovel: redback the guy was an admin at one tme
TownMeetings(*): I can only stand to see so many "so and so said U&^%$"
Bahamut: Damon as she just said, admin's personal information
including home address/phone numbers are in them
TownMeetings(*): we are not concerned about him posting his files
TownMeetings(*): even though admins stand the most to lose
DamonM: ok. No biggie.
Mori: ahh one more thing...it seems that many are interested in
their comment files...would it be possible to disclose comment files
to users with all personal information regarding who sanctioned and
who reported it deleted?
TownMeetings(*): I am addressing this issue here so that users will
understand that they have no need for concern either
ilbahr: TownMeeting what i understand that you only brought this
subject to our attention when he threatend to publish the comment
files
TownMeetings(*): and by just ignoring the issue, users would wonder
FlatNoteSharp: So... more or less, the admins that users generally
hate are to lose because their personal information will be posted and
people will take advantage of that.
redback: the comment files are there to stop abusers
ilbahr: if he did not threaten you would have not hold this meeting
FlatNoteSharp: I have personal grudges with some of the admins here.
TownMeetings(*): I am more direct, I believe in honesty and being forthright
FlatNoteSharp: I'd definitely take advantage.
Bahamut: Thanks for letting us know, I guess
TownMeetings(*): Mori, it would if the comment files were reasonable length
Bahamut: That was to FlatNote
TownMeetings(*): we could "sanitize" them and clean out private information
TownMeetings(*): but it would take much more time than admins have available
redback: we can write stuff about admins in our notes
Grovel: dont fics have any recourse. if he posts private personal
info that seems in violation of something
DamonM: the comment files, as I understand them, were originally
intended to be sticky notes to remind admin staff about player
changes, sanctions, and stuff.
TownMeetings(*): you can write stuff about admins in tells and
messages, we can't see them
MojoMan: this can all be summed up in a thing call "spring
cleaning" --enough said
TownMeetings(*): we wouldnt want to
bsdc: Thank you for holding the meeting. After it is done, please
post another news item with the URL of the log file.
TownMeetings(*): agreed, Mojo, it would be nice
igrok(*): also, lets say someone is suspected of computer cheating.
There is some evidence but it cant be proved....
TownMeetings(*): a Herculean task though and we do not have the
manpower for it
Cowboyz: does anyone have a picture of this guy, I'm thinking this
picture and short shorts, and putting it up on FICS main page lolz
igrok(*): admins can make a comment about it, and if it happens
again, it can be used to catch a computer cheater
redback: the comments are date stamped so we know
how old they are
Mori: you couldn't write a program that parses
names?
Cowboyz: okay I kid I kid, I dont have a problem personally if they
have my comments and stuf
igrok(*): but if that person knows the comment is there, it helps
him avoid detection, cheaters get away with it more easily, and we all
suffer
DamonM: or people playing 'bouncey email addresses"
TownMeetings(*): was there another question for me?
Mori: you couldn't write a program that parses names?
TownMeetings(*): probably, Mori, but comment files contain more than that
DamonM: yes, ... haven't we met someplace before?
MojoMan: cleaning up files here that are 5 ~V maybe 10 years old? I
would volunteer and I'm sure there would be many that would also
TownMeetings(*): admins dont care that you can see "Chessty nuked
Mori" for example
redback: who is the serial abuser?
TownMeetings(*): its comments like "this user has been reported for
cheating by several users, watch him"
TownMeetings(*): we don't want the user to know he is being
watched, obviously
ilbahr: one more question townmeeting was this the only incedents
of this sort??????????????????
TownMeetings(*): or we can't catch him
TownMeetings(*): yes, we have only had one incident and once was
enough to teach us to be far more careful and less trusting
DamonM: but info from years ago would not likely be valid any
longer, would it?
SaintEmilion: Chessty YOur comment sounds like only people who are
"Known" or seen in person in real life by another admin will be
accepted for consideration for a admin position?
TownMeetings(*): all admins hired now have been known by another
admin in real life
TownMeetings(*): nope
redback: what else can be stolen?
TownMeetings(*): its old stuff, SirDamin
MojoMan: no
Bahamut: Mori
Bahamut: Mischan
TownMeetings(*): that is what we have done thus far
DamonM: *smile*.. thank you, 'mam
redback: how do we stop it being stolen again?
MojoMan: I want BlueMan as a handle
TownMeetings(*): all admin applicants that are seriously considered
will at the very minimum have to speak on the phone with an admin
MojoMan: Finger of Bluesman: Last disconnected: Fri Apr 12, 20:14 PDT 1996
TownMeetings(*): will have to be checked out that they are who they
claim to be
MojoMan: that is rediculous
TownMeetings(*): if their info on the admin app is false in anyway,
they are not hired
SaintEmilion: ah so now I understand your comment
FlatNoteSharp: I find it amusing how you call it a hire... Yet
there is no payment involved here.
redback: who would want to be a fraud admin?
TownMeetings(*): *nod* hire for want of a betterword
TownMeetings(*): a user that finds it a thrill that he fooled us
TownMeetings(*): and he did
TownMeetings(*): but there is no shame in being fooled, or in
trusting too much
FlatNoteSharp: And which user would that be?
MojoMan: not here for a year? -- account deleted -- and everything
with it -- simple as that
TownMeetings(*): there is just a lesson to be learned
TownMeetings(*): and we learned it
DamonM: there was a time a few years ago that I though being a FICS
admin would be the top of the heap.
FlatNoteSharp: Deleting accounts sucks.
redback: all comments should be cross examined before action is taken
Bahamut: Being an admin looks like it's more of a pain in the neck
than anything
DamonM: being an admin was a privilege worth the effort
FlatNoteSharp: If your account is suddenly deleted and you wish to
continue somewhere along the line..
MojoMan: a year is enough
ilbahr: lol i guess my email address is being sold on many list any
way I already recieve too many junk mail thanks for the meeting admin
FlatNoteSharp: I think keeping accounts is a brilliant idea.
Bahamut: I'm considering withdrawing my application lol, not that I
thought they would even read it
TownMeetings(*): being an admin may have been more fun long long ago
TownMeetings(*): when rules were more lax
Grovel: isnt it sad we are too nice and get burned. ;[ now you got
to be more stringent
TownMeetings(*): TheDane set a fine example as HeadAdmin
TownMeetings(*): followed by foxbat
DamonM: ...and admins were generally less uptight
TownMeetings(*): not allowing admins to abuse the
users
TownMeetings(*): I hope that I can accomplish as
much
DamonM: yes... TheDane... he was a fine one.
Grovel: i think you doing great chessty
bsdc: Unrelated question: do head admins rotate every x years?
twinders: does anyone have a transcript of the
townhouse meeting?
TownMeetings(*): Head Admin elections are every 2 years
Grovel: oh
bsdc: Thank you.
TownMeetings(*): unless nobody steps up to want the position
redback: these admins who abused their power are sick
TownMeetings(*): agreed, redback
ahorse: meeting is still taking place
TownMeetings(*): it makes the integrity of the rest of the admin
team in doubt
TownMeetings(*): which is undeserved in most cases
Grovel: but like in general population there are a few bad apples ;[
TownMeetings(*): correct, Grovel
DamonM: the suspense is killing me...trying to figure out who all
was here a couple of years ago and is not here, now
TownMeetings(*): twinders, the meetings is being logged
MojoMan: abuse is a tough thing
Grovel: in any shape or form ion any life setting
mojo ;[
turbo: I was here a long time ago
twinders: thank you. I'll ob now, participate if
appropriate
turbo: But I doubt they got any of my comments
turbo: hehe
Bahamut: I've observed bad abuse by admins who are still sitting,
but it was a long time ago, so I figure that players are being
forgiven in a timely manner as well MojoMan: everything here last
forever so its hard to figure out who is who and what is what
FlatNoteSharp: Exactly..
abducted: who pays for FICS? does anyone own FICS?
DamonM: channel 24 is unlabeled... I would have thought it would
have been a channel 33 type... they have shifty eyes.
Grovel: i have actually seen admins who seemed mean turn pretty nice.
DamonM: so have I, grovel.
Grovel: getting to know them makes all the difference
Bahamut: Most people dont understand the social system in chan 24,
so people who wander in there are likely to have bad experiences.. I
could write an essay on it
bsdc: One more question. The "admins" who can place comments into
comment files include tournament managers as well, right?
Bahamut: Absolutely Grovel, it is very much one big clique
Grovel: every time i go to chan 24 its very quiet
TownMeetings(*): no, bsdc
DamonM: And I have also witnessed a few who went from being
generally nice, to nearly worthless as they seem to "burnout" on the
server
MojoMan: ch 24 is bughouse -- the one place here
where nothing applys
TownMeetings(*): tournament managers are actually not truly fics
'staff' in that they are governed by fics
TownMeetings(*): TMs are governed by SuperIntellect
Grovel: I dont doubt it Damon. it can go both ways
DamonM: it is bug?
redback: if there is only 1 comment on a player, that comment
should not be taken seriously until it can be backed up
DamonM: hmmmm.... there's a hint
MojoMan: the point is -- that comment should not last forever
abducted: who owns FICS? who pays for it?
TownMeetings(*): FICS owns itself
DamonM: the nice thing is that really bad admins don't often last very long
TownMeetings(*): for quite awhile, fics was paid for by foxbat from
his own pocket
abducted: who pays to park the server and for the bandwidth?
TownMeetings(*): he paid for the hosting
TownMeetings(*): he bought the servers
EnPassant: are the comments anonymous or is it know which admin made them
BeKind: i make all of them
Grovel: finger donate to make donations
TownMeetings(*): we licensed our code to USCL for a large enough
sum of money to sustain the server for awhile
TownMeetings(*): everything else is donations
Pulmannen: Hi guys, this might sound like a silly question but I do think
your comments should be removed after like a year or two.
TownMeetings(*): we have sponsors
Bahamut: I dont see the point of removing comments
Bahamut: Admins can ignore them at their own
discretion
DamonM: Why, Pul? What would be the point, other than masking
former activities?
MojoMan: then you need glasses bah
TownMeetings(*): EnPassant comments are all labeled
with admin name
abducted: I know admins want to keep comments and accounts forever
to track abuse, but what if this server is around 30 years from now?
redback: can action be taken on 1 comment? such as a ban without
that comment being a valid one?
TownMeetings(*): there is no point in removing old comments, we
don't read them anyway
BeKind: darn
SaintEmilion: does FICS get a monthly check from USCL?
TownMeetings(*): to scroll through two dozen pages of "someone said
^%&%" is pointless
BoonieRat: if you dont read them why keep them, :)
TownMeetings(*): not any longer Saint
DamonM: So? You don't want someone to know 30 years from now that
you were once a member of FICS when you were alive?
BeKind: i was about to ask if you have any of my comments saved
from my rebellious days
MojoMan: comments -- stored games -- sactions -- handles -- ect --
from 5 years ago are stil around? No reason for any of that
BeKind: last week
Bahamut: Mojoman why do you so badly want to delete them? What is
the advantage to removing them?
abducted: except for tracking abuse, mojo
carenp: oddly enough, mojo, we still have the occasional person who
hasn't logged on in the last five years
carenp: they show up and wonder what their password is :)
Grovel: this is kinda wierd but fics needs a section for passed on
players so we can see them and remember them.
TownMeetings(*): *nod* happens
redback: so any admin can ban someone at their discretion?
MojoMan: so?
TownMeetings(*): certainly
anaristos: also a section for passed out players, Grovel
TownMeetings(*): any admin can ban you without warning
fly: Isn't saying that removing old comments is pointless because
admins don't read them anyway is kind of missing the point? They
contain sensitive *and* identifying information about users and, as
seipman proved, they are not secure.
TownMeetings(*): and you would complain
BeKind: why haven't i been banned or warned yet?
Grovel: Id be at the top anar :]
TownMeetings(*): and I would overturn the sanction and let the
admin know that anymore of that and he will be removed from the team
TownMeetings(*): sanctions must be justifiable
TownMeetings(*): that is another reason we keep
comments
Bahamut: Like what fly? There is no sensitive information in your
comment file. As if I would care that you say "f---" in a shout six
years ago
TownMeetings(*): the admin has to justify his sanction
BeKind: oh i see i just need to find an especially power hungry and
irritable admin
carenp: i can help, bekind :)
bsdc: That is good to know (that sanctions must be justified).
BeKind: are you going to name names caren?
twinders: is it really such an issue? the threat of being banned?
Bahamut: As I recall it being explained to me by an admin in
person, there is an abuse committe that reviews bans and so on...
correct me if I am wrong
BeKind: there was one crazy admin, but i forgot his name, he always
threatened people
Bahamut: In my long experience here it is very difficult to be banned
TownMeetings(*): abuse committee reviews sanctions, yes
BoonieRat: bahamut, like i said before, there are people who work
public jobs that rely on a good reputation that could be harmed by
spurious comments from an irritable admin. users should have recourse.
that is not the case currently.
BeKind: he wasn't an admin for long
Bahamut: What kind of public jobs are you talking about? This
sounds very outlandish
TownMeetings(*): and if the complaint is about an admin, it comes
directly to me
DamonM: I think it such things should remain legit causes for concern, Pul.
Bahamut: Are you suggesting that if you one day run for President
your opponent could use your FICS comment file against you or
something?
BoonieRat: bahamut, police officers for one, speaking as a retired
peace officer, ive seen less cause permanent harm to a career.
redback: how does the fics hierrachy work?
BlitzChessClub: lol Bahamut
SaintEmilion: many are concerned that FICS will vanish in a few
years from lack of funds. They want to know how many years will fics
have before they run out of money from that lump sum from USCL? Can
you give us an estimate of how long is "Awhile"? 5 year, 10 years 20
years? 100 years?
TownMeetings(*): fics will never run out of funds
TownMeetings(*): that is foxbat's promise to fics
BlitzChessClub: :)
BeKind: in fact, fix will keep increasing its funds until it takes
over the world
Bahamut: If a police force would consider a comment made by an
admin on an internet chess server against the officer then I would
suggest they reviewtheir adminsitrative processes, or possibly get out
from behind the desk
TownMeetings(*): fics funds itself and if it comes to a point when
it can't, foxbat offered to keep the server running
ahorse: cheers for foxbat
BlitzChessClub: don't ask
TownMeetings(*): fics owes a great debt of gratitude to foxbat, but
users don't seem to know that or realize that :)
ahorse: us chess live
BeKind: united states chess losers
TownMeetings(*): we would not be here at all if not for him
BoonieRat: bahamut, point taken, but with political types who are
the ones that make these decisions on a force, common sense does not
always prevail
Bahamut: In any case I think what you are suggesting here is about
as risky as the possibility that a meteor lands on the FICS server
SaintEmilion: sounds like foxbat invested those funds in the stock
market and is collecting interest in the thousands every year :-)
BeKind: lets buys 2 servers on two different continents
DamonM: Hey, grov... didn't a meteor land here a few years back?
DamonM: we did use to have EICS
BeKind: but what if two meteors strike both servers at the same time
BoonieRat: bahamut, sounds good, but we have already seen that
these files can pop up with no warning to the user.
Grovel: meteor here?
TownMeetings(*): yes, we have an extra server that we could have
used to get EICS running again
TownMeetings(*): but nobody to host it over there
BeKind: or one is hit by a meteor at the same time the other is
broken down by technology hating monkeys
BoonieRat: eics would only shrink the player pool
TownMeetings(*): nah, it was just used as a backup server mainly
TownMeetings(*): and by a few users at a time that wanted a private
game of chess DamonM: not necessarily .. it would just wind up
being a limited club.
SaintEmilion: yes I talked to foxbat about this some time ago and
few realize how dedicated he is to keeping this server running even if
he personaly has to pay for it out of his own pocket!
Grovel: id go to eics when fics was down
DamonM: and everyone would go there when FICS was down
DamonM: like in the old days.
anaristos: once a meteor reaches the surface of the earth it
becomes a meteorite. So, no, there has never been a metor landing.
TownMeetings(*): correct Saint
DamonM: we would have a server short, and the next thing you knew,
200 people were logged into EICS where they had only 2 previously
ahorse: pstat or finger
BeKind: no, i think they got rid of the command
fly: When you say that removing old comments is pointless because
admins don't read them anyway, isn't that kind of missing the point?
They contain sensitive *and* identifying information about users and,
as seipman proved, they are not secure.
BeKind: you must not be old-timey enough ahorse
Grovel: Thanx chessty for the Groovy TownMeetingand Zonks out
.cheers Groovers |_|D
DamonM: what kind of sensitive info?
TownMeetings(*): not sure where you are going with
that, fly
DamonM: I don't think much would be considered "sensitive"
BoonieRat: i see where he is going
fly: ?
TownMeetings(*): the general user has nothing to fear in this case
TownMeetings(*): its the admin files that were compromised
BURNBOXXX(C): Does not the meteorite land on the earth?
fly: Can I give an example?
TownMeetings(*): certainly
botchvinik: new admin signons are going to have to meet personally
with other admins now?
Avorio: how can i adjourney
TownMeetings(*): meet or speak on the phone, they will have to
provide proof of who they are
botchvinik: good!
botchvinik: leave the speak on phone out and make it face 2 face
botchvinik: never a question that way
TownMeetings(*): most admins have met each other at chess tourneys
DamonM: I think it should be a requirement that they know how to
move the horsey-looking thingys
DamonM: at least for the adjudicating ones
abducted: so who are some other infamous abusers and dupes that
have been banned ???
WorkOrChess: sveshi
BeKind: its abuse to mention them
BeKind: but i think we should unban flum
WorkOrChess: it's abuse to tell people not to mention abusers
ThoBjo: luckily face-2-face meetings wasn't necessary when i became
an admin...if they had seen my face they would have denied my app at
once :-P
BeKind: and its abuse to tell me that
BeKind: ack!
BeKind: actually its only abuse if you mention in public that its abuse
abducted: seriously who are the FICS cybervillians?
abducted: you can tell me.
BeKind: private tells are good for talking about abuse
TownMeetings(*): flum is no longer with us so the point is moot
DamonM: they are unimportant little people.
DamonM: flum is gone?
NegativeNirvana: why ? floom comments published?
TownMeetings(*): flum passed several years ago
BeKind: give him an honorary unban
abducted: flum faked his death so he could get a.... DUPE !
botchvinik: we should hire e-thugs to collect protection money from dupers
TownMeetings(*): if there are no more questions concerning the
comment files that I have not already addressed, this meeting is
adjourned
abducted: who elects the admins?
MojoMan: all cool with me
NegativeNirvana: where to read stolen comments ? lol
botchvinik: well, so what is going to be done?
TownMeetings(*): I select new admins, abducted
MojoMan: I think I made my thought clear ~V done know about th admin
elections or stolen commets though
abducted: the only unanswered question: so what are
you going to do about all this?
TownMeetings(*): not a darn thing :)
abducted: nothin' ?
TownMeetings(*): the user is obviously not going to get an account back
BoonieRat: at least she is honest
MojoMan: things get done
TownMeetings(*): he has old comment files that amount to nothing exciting
TownMeetings(*): he thinks he has some hold over us and can't
believe we simply are not concerned in the least bit
MojoMan: fics is like the Catholic Church --changes take time
botchvinik: but if we find shiite on the net smoewhere will we be
having more meetings then?
TownMeetings(*): the only reason I addressed the issue is because
the general user does not know that there really is nothing to be
concerned about and I wanted to lay those fears to rest
Cowboyz: hahahaz he expects 50 a note of my who likes short shorts? comments?
TownMeetings(*): he he took admin comment files and he took abusers
comment files
TownMeetings(*): if you are neither, you definitely have no worries :)
Cowboyz: what, is he going to sell notes from fics on ebay
abducted: I'd advise the admins to be careful... be cyberstalked by
someone with a grudge is not fun
BoonieRat: seriously
MojoMan: did I mention deleting once a year so that is not such a
big problem? lol
TownMeetings(*): point noted, Mojo :)
NegativeNirvana: you delete comments every year ?
TownMeetings(*): thank you all very much for your participation and
your insight
MojoMan: rotfl
NegativeNirvana: just missed th whole conversation
botchvinik: and now all 64 may rest
LionMan: I wear my comments like a badge, and I would be mad or
something if I lost all of them. :)
TownMeetings(*): Mojo, I appreciate your comments, please message
them again to me at fics.ha@gmail.com
TownMeetings(*): I particularly am interested in your thoughts on
the old comment files and player files
TownMeetings(*): I would love to be able to do something about that
MojoMan: ok
May 2nd 2005 Townmeeting
